"They rarely, in practice, follow expectations that they are compelled or coerced into following"

Are you kidding? Kids frequently follow expectations when they are coerced. How do you think most parents control their kids?

That was a typo on my part. I meant to say, "They rarely, in practice, follow expectations that they are not compelled or coerced into following." Sorry about that.

Some kids are notorious for defying adults, and some kids are notorious for doing whatever adults tell them to do (for the most part.)

All ages have sycophants, my friend. Are adults not also conditioned to show automatic respect and reverence to certain authority figures? Yet you do not often see kids doing things that they really and truly do not want to do on any conceivable level if they are not forced or coerced into it.

I was such a child. I never openly defied my parents (and rarely broke any rules even behind their backs), or any other adult, nor did most of the kids I grew up with. I didn't sass my parents or anything of the kind. I had enough problems just being myself without deliberately adding more to them. There are a lot of kids like me, Dissident. They are a very diverse lot. Your argument breaks down when you make those kinds of sweeping claims, and you are bound to contradict yourself, which you did in this post, as we'll see in a minute..

Yes, I have noticed big differences between kids raised in cities compared to those raised in the country. I don't deny what you tell me about yourself when you were a kid, but I hardly knew any kid who did precisely what their parents said and never even sassed them behind their backs, and I grew up in a big city and knew many, many kids, including many who defied particularly mean parents on a regular basis behind their back. I'm not the one making a generalization nearly as big as those who say or imply that all kids will typically do what adults tell them to do, or worse, suggest that if some will, we should base the laws on assuming that all will, "just in case."

Really? People of any age? So you think babies and toddlers would be better off on the whole if we just allowed them to wander wherever the hell they damn well pleased and get into whatever they wanted to get into? Hmmm . . .

Markie, you know damn well that I have very often stated that younger kids, particularly infants and toddlers, will need special but reasonable rules, and I defined precisely what I meant as "reasonable" rules in the past. Many others on this board have done the same. Please stop ignoring these statements and using extreme examples like that, because you know they do not reflect our actual views.

And you're going to have to demonstrate exactly how it will benefit them in the long run. That won't be easy; people are notoriously short-sighted and fickle when it comes to social planning. Look how our society constantly volleys back and forth between liberal and conservative politicians. We will have our work cut out for us just getting to that point. Think about how that will be perceived. Parents will say, "You arrogant bastards believe you know what's better for my children than I do?" It will take finesse and compromise to deal with that, not beating the war drums, which is an arrogant action and which far too many people in this community do as a matter of course. We will get exactly nowhere with that line of logic.

And how many times have I told you this, Markie: I am not against compromise, and have argued in favor of its necessity many times, including instances where I have been attacked by the some of the more radical people around here. However, I have also said that there is a big difference between compromise and compromised, which means compromise shouldn't be taken too far, and should always be reasonable and fair to both sides.

And yet people cling to it like its Divine Providence or something that the kids be freed at once, and how dare parents stand in the way of progress! My, my. And people here wonder why things seem to be getting worse rather than better. Well, it's no mystery to me. If I was a non-MAP parent and happened upon this board, it would likely scare the ever-loving shit out of me, and I too would dig in my heels.

That's presuming that all parents see things precisely the way you do when you read the posts here, Markie, and I can assure that some fence-sitting parents do not. Youth libbers have stated repeatedly that we do not see parents as the enemy, and several prominent youth libbers are parents, including Epstein himself.

Yes, that is exactly my point. They can make videos showing themselves doing goofy dances or lip-syncing to Justin Bieber and manage to upload it to YouTube for the amusement of thousands of people, but apparently it is beyond them to make videos asking challenging questions or demanding rights because they are cowed into submission, the poor dears.

Ummmm...did you see not see this link provided earlier today by kraft?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085710/Girl-13-attacks-slut-shaming-YouTube-video.html

Have you not seen this: http://www.mikeshighschoolnews.com/

And I'm sure you failed to see the numerous times we have mentioned Oblivion, the youth rights zine that has been online since 1995?

There are many more examples of the above that can be found, but they are not yet promoted by the mainstream media, nor are kids allowed to have societally disapproved voices there in large numbers; and when they do take advantage of unique outlets like YouTube, take a gander at the type of comments they receive from largely adult viewers (you can see such comments above after the article on the first link). One thing you need to understand is that online outlets like YouTube and Michael Moore's page are rather new, and young people are just beginning to take advantage of them, while at the same time fighting against adult attempts to censor them. You can't expect them to take over such alternative information outlets overnight. What you should do is notice that they are incrementally doing so, and in enough numbers to prove that intelligent, thoughtful, and competent youth are not "exceptions to the rule" or "prodigies."

Based on some recent discussion we have had (not all of them civil, unfortch), please peruse the following few quotes:

"No guarantees come with children's liberation. But neither the promise of great benefits to all nor the prediction of great difficulties ahead can serve as the reason for granting or denying rights to children. Rights will be granted because without them children are incapacitated, oppressed, and abused." - Richard Farson, Birthrights

"If I am young and wrong, then you are correct to look down on my ignorance. But if I am young and right, what does my age matter?" - Ausculus, Antigones.

More later...