Re: Let's take it from the top

Greetings, Saigo, and welcome back to the board.

It must be really encouraging to be able to come out to a whole class, and also to have actual mental health professionals be able to talk with you without viewing you as a "subject" or "patient". I wonder, though, if your results would have been the same if you substituted "5 year old girl" for "14 year old girl".

One step at a time, my friend.

Now let me say that I'm not the kind of person who is super distrustful of everyone (i.e. assumes any "nons" are also "anti's")... This is probably why I'm out to pretty much everyone I know outside of work (with exceptions for people I know would freak out and hate me forever). All of my friends accept me for who I am, and I've talked with them at length about my attraction. If it was to 14 year old girls, I don't know if it would have even been much of an issue for me, but as fate would have it, I am primarily attracted to 4-8 year old girls. This presents a bit of difficulty sometimes. But in the end, I'm still hopeful for society at large.

Currently, it should be noted that hebephiles do not have it all that much easier than true pedophiles do, because despite the fact that adolescents are clearly young adults those under 18 nevertheless share a legal status with children, and as such the bulk of society continues to view adolescents under 18 as older children rather than young adults (and some adults, including a friend of mine who was not happy with the fact that I seek relationships with younger women in the 18-early 20's age range, even consider young people a few years past the Magic Age to be "children"). This is why the media so often conflates pedophilia and hebephilia with each other, and why much of society sees absolutely no difference between the two...both groups are "pedophiles" as far as most people are concerned. This conflation is also why pedophiles are often blamed for things that certain hebephiles with less than stellar common sense are actually responsible for, such as meeting teen girls in chat rooms (be they real or cops or vigilantes pretending to be) and agreeing to meet up with them in real life. Such individuals who do these things are most often hebephiles, and not pedophiles. And based on what I have seen so far at the B4U-Act workshop, and with the trend started in Latin American nations by Peru to actually lower rather than raise the AoC laws, there is indeed hope on the horizon. Never give up, my friend.

Anyway, since I'm attracted to such young girls, for me, it would probably not work very well to argue publicly for the acceptance of a loving relationship between a man in his 20s and a girl of 5 or 6. I honestly believe the best approach is to come out individually to people you know and trust. It's like building a web of people who have met a "pedophile"--and you know what? He's actually a nice guy who you would trust with your children!

Full agreement. Those who can afford to come out (and many of us cannot do so for fully justifiable reasons) should often do so, because by doing this we can prove to those who are close to us that MAAs (be they pedo, hebe, or nepi) are fully capable of being decent and caring human beings who would do anything for those we loved and even for the world in general, and would never harm a minor. The fact that I am "out" as a hebephile in real life to most people who know me has gone a long way towards making them re-think the common societal attitudes towards all MAAs since I offer them proof that it's possible for one of us to be a good person. Though there are very real risks for MAAs coming out like this, even if they do not have kids of their own or work in an occupation where they are frequently interacting with kids, such as giving those who do not like you a beautiful set of ammunition to use against you during an argument or to gossip about behind your back, I think the risks are worth it when weighed against the benefits, even though I do advise caution to those in our community who tell us that they plan to come out of the toybox.

One point I was going to make is that there is probably too much discussion about which terms to use. When I have come out to people, I have avoided using any terms. The familiar ones (to nons) are loaded words these days anyway. I just tell people that I like younger girls. Invariably, they ask how much younger, and I say something like "A lot younger." Take one tiny step at a time when you're on potentially thin ice.

Agreed, though people will often bring up the subject of labels themselves even if we don't do so first, as I have been called a "pedophile" in the past when I revealed my preference for young adolescent girls, and last year I was called a "pedofile" by a young gay woman behind my back when I revealed to her that I was interested in a 21 year old woman (this shows how broadly such labels are applied). I personally have no problem with using labels, because they can be useful in describing what my feelings are and how I self-identify, and though I agree with you that these labels carry loaded connotations with them, I have found that if someone trusts you enough, they will listen to your explanations of what these labels actually mean and eventually no longer view these terms as meaning something "bad" or negative. For example, mainstream gays have taken the term "queer" from society and often use it proudly to describe their identity despite the fact that the term was applied to them earlier in the 20th century by people outside of their community in a totally derogatory manner (i.e., to suggest that gay people are "strange," which is the original meaning of the word "queer") and some women who are proud of their sexuality and refuse to allow this society to convince them that the expression of female sexuality constitutes a bad moral foundation for a woman or is somehow degrading to them are gradually beginning to proudly adopt the word "slut" for themselves despite the obvious derogatory intent of such a word (for more on the latter example, I recommend the terrific book written by two women who are rightfully proud of their sexuality called The Ethical Slut). As such, I am hopeful that the word "pedophile," despite all of its negative connotations due to a highly irresponsible media, can eventually be salvaged. Whether or not the term can be salvaged or should instead be considered marred beyond any hope of doing so and therefore jettisoned from the lexicon of our community has been discussed before on this board, and it's certainly a legitimate and important topic to debate amongst ourselves.

Consider this: There are anti's out there who are on a tirade and they campaign against us with such zeal that we cannot match them. Imagine, if you will, one of us speaking publicly with as much energy and forcefulness as the most ardent anti. If you were to extol the virtues of a relationship with a young teenage girl, people might laugh at you or give you weird looks. If you were to vigorously make your arguments, however valid and well thought out, in favor of a relationship with a first grader, you would most likely be attacked or arrested. Keep in mind, that's if you were as enthusiastic as, say, someone on Perverted Justice.

Well, as I noted to you up above, whenever I have mentioned my preference for teen girls, even when a girl I may have looked at and visually admired happened to be as old as 16, I have sometimes received an angry reaction that goes, "Geez, she is just a child!" As such, I think whether or not hebephiles current have it easier by some degree than pedophiles do in modern society, where adolescents under 18 are very often considered children due to sharing a legal and social status with pre-pubescents, is another interesting topic that deserves further discussion in this community. In regards to labels, my various work on the field in the past, including the most recent example I mentioned up above with B4U-Act, has given me what I believe to be good evidence that using these terms may not be a totally negative thing, and can even be useful since these are terms that people are used to regardless of their negative connotations. Your points and concerns are certainly valid, of course, and I think everyone in this community should keep them in mind and the concerns you have raised are ones that could make for some interesting and important discussions among our community. It should also be noted that within the greater MAA community, there has often been discussion in places where BLers and GLers routinely interact (such as LifeLine, and previously, on Common Ground) about whether or not BLers or GLers have it easier than the other in society, and these have also been interesting discussions.

I'll stick to my way of doing things, since it's worked so well so far. Only come out when it serves you better than not coming out. If you really need someone to talk to about it, and you have supportive, open-minded friends, talk to them about it (but not before you're ready).

Full agreement. You should consider participating in LifeLine chat in the future, as you would do much good in there for the community by giving really good advice.

I'm hoping for the day when we can say "Hey, let me cuddle with your daughter", and get a positive response. :D

As am I, my friend.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response and I hope to see you around here more often.