Re: Um... maybe I'm not as smart as all of you

But I do believe there is a childhood, or childlike, 'innocence'.

Innocence is not knowing that evil/wrongdoings exist, or at least happen all the time.

Different people have different definitions of it, but yours at least isn't mystical. Still, in other contexts we call this ignorance and usually try to correct it as quickly as possible in children. It's just certain things (mostly sex) where we shield the truth from kids and call their ignorance innocence. Moreover, if we were to apply your definition to the actuality, it would presuppose that sex is inherently evil. Unfortunately, that is exactly how many children take it and one of the main reasons why we're so sexually dysfunctional in this country. At any rate, it is virtually impossible to hide sex from kids anyway. That has long been true, but it is even more true now, with the existence of the internet, where any kind of porn imaginable is but a click away and in no short supply. So, all our efforts to hide sex from kids is simply teaching them to be sneaky and furtive about sex, and then you have all of the guilt and shame that comes with that. It is time to break this cycle forever.

But, to address your more general point, I don't think we are doing kids any favors by hiding evil from them. Evil exists, and if their sole exposure to it is through media, there is again a badly distorted picture they are receiving. Take violence. A lot of kids are not aware of the reality of violence, only the weirdly glamorized model of it they see in a typical Hollywood action film. Were the kids who survived the Sandy Hooks massacre somehow better off by not knowing there are evil people in the world capable of slaughtering first graders in their classroom? I wonder. Shouldn't kids be taught some sort of coping mechanisms for tragic situations before they happen?

The reason people talk about a child losing their innocence is that if a child is raped (lets go with REAL rape here) they realize that people do horrible things for no reason. Or they blame themselves because there MUST be something wrong with them for it to happen. Bad things don't happen to good people right?

Herein lies the problem: no one EVER does anything for no reason. There is always a reason. It may be twisted and delusional as all get-out, but there is a reason it happens. Evil is not something that exists as some external, a priori force that makes otherwise rational and good people do bad things. That is mystical nonsense. We are all capable of evil, and we must be careful to guard against it. In fact, the most horrendous evil is often justified by those committing it as an act of profound good. Need I remind you of the witch hunts? The people who burned witches genuinely believed they were cleansing the world of evil. In fact, that is a good example of exactly why that view of evil is so fucked up. So, what we must do is teach children that evil can come from all of us, as can good, and that these things can be conditional. I know it's complicated, and it's a lot easier for people to just tell kids the devil makes you do bad stuff. But that is clearly a huge cop-out.

So, kids should be told the truth: evil does not come from without and sneak into your heart if you miss your daily prayer or some such garbage. Evil comes from within, and so does good. So always use your brain and your heart, and learn to gauge the situation and to empathize with others. Sometimes we struggle with these things, even the kiddies. And so, kids should be aware that others are sometimes struggling too. In short, teaching kids to be good people is an ongoing process, and it cannot start too early. The earliest measures to curtail bad behavior in kids are simply to keep them away from things that can cause them to get into mischief, since you can't reason with an 18-month-old.

I guess to me knowledge of sex doesn't define a loss of innocence like it does 'regular' people. I mean there are 18 year olds who I would consider to be 'innocent' in some manners.

I don't know, I think children can be niave and innocent, and knowledgeable in other areas, or exposed to negative things in other areas. Just like adults can be innocent in some areas and not in others. The older we get the more experience we have the more we realize the good and the bad situations that come up.

It's why you tell your son or daughter don't leave your drink unattended at a party, because they are 'innocent' in not realizing that someone might slip them something and have sex with their limp body. They were niave and innocent in that respect.

Again, I think its bad policy to qualify innocence as something separate from ignorance. It invests it with a kind of magical property, as if loss of "innocence" somehow ruins the child instead of protecting them. We don't do kids any favors by teaching them that the loss of their "innocence" is inherently harmful to their precious little souls. It's the source of sociogenic harm, as it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. Believe me, I know of what I speak. Arming children with knowledge is never a bad thing. Of course, people can take it to extremes and create timid little kids afraid of their own shadows if they obsess over bad stuff, but they need not actually tell kids anything to get that result--their behavior can speak volumes. 80% of human communication is nonverbal anyway.

So, if you refuse to let children play in the front yard because of the very slim chance that someone will snatch them and do bad things to them, you can get the same effect. So the irony of all of this is that adults often truly fuck up kids by going overboard on trying to protect their innocence. So, educate the kids, but keep it in perspective, and let them enjoy life. Don't impose your neuroses on them, because THAT is what really messes them up. Again, I speak from experience.

Plus c'mon, you can't tell me part of you doesn't LOVE part of the innocence of being with a child. That trust they have that life is awesome, that the good guys always win.

At one time I would've said yes, but it was when I was fairly naive myself. Now I am more excited to see children learn and become empowered. What I love about kids is their unflagging curiosity about life. Unless they have these qualities beaten out of them very early (and all too many of them do, unfortunately), kids are natural scientists, I think. They want to know why, why, why, sometimes to the point of annoying adults, who feel they have better things to do than indulge children in answering their seemingly endless string of wherefores. But me, I will happily answer their questions to the best of my ability for as long as I am able, and I will not lie.

One of my LGFs, who was raised here in the Bible belt, once asked me when she was around 7 or 8 if I believed in God. Being a staunch agnostic at the time, I told her I did not know if there was a God or not. From the look on her face it was clear that it was not the answer she was looking for, and I think that it actually distanced her from me somewhat, which saddened me then and still does, but I spoke the truth. I will not lie to kids to indulge their delusions. It is better that they are disabused of such things early on. They might not like it, but in the long run they will probably respect you more for speaking the truth. And they will always trust you to shoot them straight, and that is its own reward.