It's only "bullshit" to you because you do not know them, or hang out with them, in real life. It's impossible to determine how "out" someone is off the boards if you do not know them. And I've found that when people know you personally, and come to respect you for your actions and overall behavior, your views are tolerated as much as your actions are.

There is no evidence for it but your word. Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that to convince me.

The thing is, as I said i don't need to convince you. Others here know, and these are individuals whom I can trust. That's all that matters to me. I know this to be the case with other pro-choicers whom I have met in person as well, since their families were sometimes part of the situation. Some here are aware of that too.

Which is why I was never "in the toybox" in the first place. But that doesn't mean I trumpet the fact that I'm a hebephile to every person and every venue that I go to, so that this becomes what I'm primarily known as to everyone. And I never compromised my principles or views to gain greater acceptance, and never gave into shame and guilt over my natural attractions. And though I haven't always gotten along with everyone in my community, I never turned on them as a means of externalizing my own inner conflicts and need to vent. You're not the only anti-choicer who has done this either, Markie (remember Leon, as another prominent "blast from the past"?).

I'm not asking you to trumpet your sexuality everywhere you go. I don't do that either. I'm asking for evidence that there are people who are out as pedophile activists (hebephiles barely count, since attraction to pubescent females is normal even if it's against the law).

The majority of people in society right now do not consider adult attraction to young adolescents as being "normal," or at the very least consider it immoral, because adolescents under 18 in America share a legal status with children. In fact, I know many people who object on moral grounds to me dating younger women in the 18-early 20s age range, and was once derided as a "pedafile" for openly acknowledging my attraction to a 21-year-old woman. That aside, Markie, you would know many pedophiles of a pro-choice view who were "out" in real life if you were a member of B4U-ACT rather than VirPed, because the former allows MAPs of any viewpoint, since views on the topic of contact and youth lib are not addressed. Members of that org have met on a regular basis at workshops and symposiums.

That doesn't make you brave, Markie, considering what you did and what you turned against to (hopefully) make yourself more acceptable to the status quo you remain loyal to despite how it is.

Riiiiiiiigggght. Keep saying it--you're really good at lying to yourself, so eventually you'll probably come to believe it.

Says the bloke with the reputation for contradicting his statements over and over again on a routine basis.

Please remember that the next you suggest that any pro-choicer not loudly rioting down the street "I'm a MAP! I'm a MAP! Woo hoo!" is some type of coward.

Well, every time you call me a sellout, I will keep pointing out that your ilk are cowards, because you are. Not a single one of you has the backbone to stand behind your convictions publicly. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck . . . :)

Play the broken record all you like, Markus, because one thing cannot be ignored: My statements are readily observable throughout your posting history. Your statements are entirely your own supposition.

I wish more of us were out to some degree at least too, and have said that often, but there are mitigating factors in people's lives that can make it very dangerous to do this, and saying "bullshit" to that is being knowingly disingenuous. You have experienced first hand what can happen to those who are "out" if they come to the attention of vigilantes, and it happened to you even after you went the anti-choice route. Our detractors care as little for our views as those who know and respect us well.

Of course there are mitigating factors. If this shit was easy, everyone would do it. But that's what courage is: doing what's right despite the "mitigating factors."

Says the bloke who changes positions and statements like other people change clothing, all to put gaining acceptance before doing the right thing.

You can make endless excuses.

Spoken by the dude who always has an excuse to change positions whenever it's personally expedient for him, and to keep interacting with a group of people he has few good things to say about. This time it's to "help Ethan." What will it be next time? Just admit you don't really feel that way about us and stop being so derisive of this segment of the community.

There are always going to be reasons that make it difficult. I'm came out because someone needed to do it, despite all the hardships I faced--and still face--because of it. But I'm not backing down anymore. This is who I am and I will fight for the right to be who I am, because it's the right thing to do.

And by the way, I know very well there are a lot of people who could care less whether I identify as a pro-contacter or an anti-contacter, which is why your accusation that I changed to an anti-contacter to appease the public is bullshit. It's just a way for you to get under my skin, as you well know, since you are very well aware that it only matters that I'm a pedo in many people's eyes. But it is what it is.

What you know, deep down, to be the truth doesn't often affect what you hope for emotionally. The anti-choice position is all based on emotion, not rationality, and it's emotion that causes instability and breakdowns.

Then I call bullshit on this, as would anyone else who has read your posts over the many years you have been a member of this community. You love presenting yourself as a victim, and you only started doing that in a major way after you had the first major breakdown while a member of this community, one that caused you to switch to anti-choice in the first place. That was partly as a response to being pissed at the community for remaining neutral after a major dispute you had with JD rather than coming out to your side, and partly to do "damage control" over the personal fall-out you experienced after "coming out." No one who remembers the timing of that and witnessed your behavior and posting history over the years would believe you have any degree of respect for yourself or your attractions. The fact that you frequently contradict yourself is further testament to that.

LOL, alright. Your memory of those events is a tad off, I'd say. Neutral? No. Most people turned on me like dogs when I changed sides, proving they were never my friends to begin with.

I said they were neutral in your dispute with JD, and you couldn't abide by that. You wanted everyone to come out en masse on your side. That was your self-described "final straw" event. It was clear to everyone that you changed sides in part out of spite over that. You disappointed a lot of people after being one of the most strident pro-choicers for a few years, because you inspired many with your posts and efforts during that time. You never hesitated to rub that change of position in our noses every opportunity you had, and to start arguments over the topic every chance you got. Considering your history of inspiring many, that was no small thing. You know damn well that views are important, and not trivial, but you only acknowledge that when it serves your interests at the moment. You were a total jerk about the whole thing, and you got treated accordingly, not to mention unrelated incidents that were not irrelevant or petty. And you still got forgiven and accepted back into the community and given endless "second" chances. Does that sound like a community who has no concern for you? And yes, I am going to throw all of that at you again, because it happened, and it's a significant aspect of your history here. I'm sorry, but I'm not inclined to give you a break and forget that ever happened when you claim that we all treated you "like a dog" for petty and transient reasons, and position yourself as the victim.

You also claimed that another reason you changed positions was because no one offered you support during your then-recent spate of doubts and resulting depression due to having read one of Enigma's creepy posts. That was total nonsense, as the people here have given you support and forgiveness continuously through all the years of your most erratic behavior and insults directed at GC. Anyone who has seen even a modicum of your posting history knows that we've been there for you when you needed support.

I do wish things had gone down differently than they did. I made mistakes, which I have atoned for (even though you never fail to take delight in bringing them up every time we get into an argument and twisting that knife despite your claims of forgiveness, because that's just how you roll, innit?)

No, Markie, I bring them up again - as I did here - because continuing to behave exactly like you always have after you're forgiven numerous times, and then again claiming we never had good reasons for our falling outs with you in the past, seems to be how you roll. People do forgive, Markie, but they don't forget, and you need to realize that. You make it nigh-impossible to forget those things you did in the past when you continue being the exact same person, with the exact same behavior, after every time you do something and are forgiven. Maybe it's not us who are insincere about accepting your apology, but you who lacks sincerity for always exhibiting the same type of behavior that you have apologized for numerous times. Have you ever considered that? Before accusing me of "twisting the knife," consider not shoving your own knife in our backs continuously.

This is just petty of you to keep bringing up the past and holding it over me, but frankly, I'm not surprised.

What you did was not petty, bro. How you continue to behave after every apology of yours makes it impossible to forget and pretend it didn't happen.

Yes, your shame and guilt over your own attractions, and how you feel that tailoring your views to public sentiment will make you more acceptable to them. That is still a major theme of your posts today, in fact. Sorry, Markie, but I duly recall how you lambasted us for having feelings not in harmony with public acceptability the first time you left - for a year, as I recall that particular time - to try and get yourself "cured," and strongly suggested the rest of us do the same. Those are not the words of an emotionally stable person who does not hate what they are, and who isn't desperate to become acceptable to the prevailing status quo in some fashion (once they realize they cannot be "cured").

Apparently you are too stupid to understand the nuance (I should expect no less from the 'all or nothing' crowd), but there is a difference between moral convictions and self-hate.

A person who constantly changes his tune with the wind is not a person of conviction. I honestly believe your self-hate comes through in many of your posts throughout the years. Venting on people who care about them is a common form of negative behavior from such individuals, particularly those with the victim complex (i.e., "it's the pain talking, not me, you lack compassion for my problem if you hold me accountable for anything I do when I have a breakdown!"). And you clearly said you were trying to "cure" yourself because your feelings were not considered socially acceptable. Post the text if you claim you said otherwise, because you didn't, Markie. Why would you want to be "cured" if you didn't hate those natural feelings of yours, and simply just refuse to act on them and continue to convince yourself it would be inherently wrong in any type of context? I thought VirPeds didn't believe a MAP needs to be cured of his feelings to avoid acting on them?

Then again, after telling me that I can't recognize nuance, and that pro-choicers are guilty of absolutist thinking, you gladly ignore the fact that the very core of the anti-choice ideology is an absolutist condemnation of a certain form of activity regardless of any nuance or individual circumstances. So who is being the hypocrite here?

I know in your mind being a pedophile is synonymous with being a proud supporter of child molestation (even if you don't call it that), but it's just not true.

It's amazing what people will admit to believing when they're "pushed in the corner" during a heated debate, eh, Markie? Or is this just "the pain" talking, and you didn't really mean it? It's bad old Dissy's fault that you said that, right? Okay.

There is no point in going on with this discussion. You clearly have no intention of letting up on your bullshit, and you know I'm right about your cowardice.

I'm not afraid to go against public sentiment if I think it's wrong. That takes more courage than you've had in a long time, Markie. And you know it.

We're getting nowhere. And yes, our friendship, such as it was, is at an end, which you're fine with I'm sure, despite all your insincere back-patting and pretending like we're best buds.

I was never fine with that, and I'm not fine with it now. I am, and always have been, simply not fine with your behavior over the years, and how you constantly expect us to forget after we forgive when you start up with the identical behavior again.

You're fucking Ramsay Bolton, dude--a sociopath who smiles and twists the knife at the same time. Go to hell, Dissident.

A sociopath is incapable of caring for anyone. Those who know me well know otherwise. Maybe you never knew me as well as you like to think, Markie.

Here's the truth: you're all child predators who are too cowardly to actually molest children, so you spew your resentment at society for having the gall to protect their kids from you.

Is this what you really believed all along, Markie? Does VirPed know this is what you think? Is this what you and your VirpEd buddies say behind the scenes to each other? Or is this just "the pain" speaking, that we're supposed to not only forgive, but also forget, yet again?

Now you claim we obey the law because we're too cowardly to act on feelings that we do not believe to be inherently toxic to kids in a mutually consensual and respectful manner, something the available scientific data does not refute? Oh, wait, you want to protect children by keeping them in a legally and socially disempowered situation where they are subject to the greatest amount of real abuse of all kinds - including real molestation - by the people whom you insist we must trust having such power over them in the first place.

You do not care about kids, you care about keeping them in the situation they currently find themselves in, plain and simple. That's the "respectable" belief, hence that's what the majority wants. It's better and far easier to externalize the threat, so that kids are kept in their proper place, may the risks of that be damned. You don't care how much they may be molested in the home, completely behind the scenes and outside the purview of the community, by people who are most often not MAPs at all, precisely because of the current legal disempowerment of kids and the placing of too much absolutist power in whomever their "legal guardians" (read: legal owners) happen to be. That doesn't sound like it's the kids they want to protect, so much as the current political and legal position of both age groups relative to each other. How noble!

Maybe you should think about that the next time you go on one of your attack tirades on us. I'm most certainly not going to forget what you said this time you were backed into the corner, even if I do end up forgiving you.

And that's all, folks.

I'm sure Porkie Pig would be proud to hear you steal his schtick.