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Re: Agreed...

Posted by EthanEdwards on Friday, April 18 2014 at 6:24:42PM
In reply to Re: Agreed... posted by Dissident on Friday, April 18 2014 at 08:14:17AM

Mostly I find you making claims about the nature of society and the political forces within it that are just not true. I don't think either of us has statistics to cite, though I think most social scientists would disagree with you. I also am strongly motivated to get briefer here. But for some specifics:

As I look at GC posts, I see a lot of people who think girls are great. And I see a lot of people who really hope society could change so they could have sex with girls. Some will go for youth rights if that helps them towards their goal.

I wasn't intending to paint them with bad motives, I was just noting that their concern seems focused on their perceived self-interest, which is only natural. Your ideas for reform certainly reach far in many directions within the entirety of the human condition.

You will see many posts devoted to the appreciation of girls, and the expressed desire to have full romantic relations with them, which is a natural and human thing for a GLer to want. But the belief that such a yearning is intrinsically diabolical

I find such a yearning entirely fine and feel it myself. I think such yearnings must not be acted upon with real girls for pragmatic (if enduring) reasons having to do with percentages of harm perpetrated despite the intentions of the men involved. "Diabolical" doesn't enter into my thinking anywhere.

And no call for an investigation to clarify the girl's claims, and make sure she doesn't have a history of lying to gain favors from people, revenge for refusing to do everything she asks, etc.? That is giving a hell of a lot of absolute power to one side of the issue,

My position is that engaging in the sexual activity with the underage person was wrong, so the way for the man to stay safe was to not do it. If he goes over the line, he is indeed at her mercy. But she is receiving protection against the "he said, she said" difficulties inherent in adult-adult rape prosecutions. But I'm providing a way to forgiveness that will work a large percentage of the time, notably when the man was actually correct in understanding the girl to have the maturity and knowledge necessary for it to work out well for her.

But it's always wrong for him to allow the relationship to start.

I should clarify. I mean that it is wrong at the level of shared secular morality. I am claiming it is wrong for you too, not just for me.

I don't take that limitation on the minor's sexual expression as a very serious infringement. The people who may feel it as a serious infringement are pedophiles, not girls.

You just spoke for every girl in the world, Ethan. Is that really the universal wish for all girls, or are you projecting your own moral beliefs and hopes upon every one of them?

As I've said before, I think in society's dealings with minors, moral values are a necessary part of it. But it has nothing to do with thinking girls are wrong to have sexual desires or want to express them. It has to do with how many girls gnash their teeth at an inability to have sex with grown-ups in comparison to how many women gnash their teeth about being sexually abused when they were young.

One underage girl pheophile who once used to post here regularly (her nick was Fayla) had a YouTube channel where she regularly posted audio commentary demanding her rights.

It sounds like an interesting case. I'd like to learn more about her if you have links to news media, for instance. Obviously the treatment you describe is horrible. But the idea that we have significant numbers of terrified schoolgirls whispering about their oppression because they can't even advocate for their right to sex with adults just doesn't ring true.

Once underagers are granted the right to suffrage

I wouldn't mind giving the vote to even young children. But starting with what we know about voting participation rates for youth presently and how few people are in the 13-17 age cohort, I am fairly confident that very little would change.

Is some of it exaggerated and stirred up by societal attitudes? Undoubtedly. But there's a lot left over. The idea that it is all just society's attitudes amounts to a humongous conspiracy theory.

Does it? Have you asked every single one of these women...

I'm not sure where you're going here. I've allowed for the fact that much may have been stirred up by social overreaction. Are you expecting I will find that it will ALL go away if I ask questions hard enough?

Even if they are comparatively rare, these serious negative outcomes are enough to make the idea of men starting sexual relationships with young girls always wrong.

By that same logic, it's wrong to get married in call cases, ...

It's not an argument based on logical form, as I think I've made clear elsewhere. It's the weighing of costs and benefits -- the comparison of fairly rare serious negative outcomes compared to very small positive benefits. Marriage aside, reproduction itself has all kinds of perils, but the benefits are sizable, including not going extinct.





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