Dude, I don't pretend not to be a hebephile in real life. I don't pretend not to be pro-choice or a youth liberationist either. And believe it or not... I don't pretend not to be a Marxist.

If that's true, you are the exception to the rule.

I think that pretty much covers the great majority of MAPs these days, regardless of what their views are, Markie. It's your overall actions that is what gains acceptance and respect from Non-MAPs, not primarily what your views are on the hot button issues (contrary to what you seem to think at times).

There are many pro-choicers who are out in real life, even if not within the online MAP community.

Bullshit. There are a handful at best, and they are all outside of this community. Tom O'Carroll, okay. But the people in this community? I see no evidence that any of them are out.

It's only "bullshit" to you because you do not know them, or hang out with them, in real life. It's impossible to determine how "out" someone is off the boards if you do not know them. And I've found that when people know you personally, and come to respect you for your actions and overall behavior, your views are tolerated as much as your actions are.

I see you saying you're out, which isn't exactly proof.

And you can't have that proof unless you personally know me outside of these walls. A few of the long-time GC posters here have met me outside of that context, and do have the proof. That's all that counts for me. The fact that I have never earned a reputation as a chronic liar enables more to give me the benefit of the doubt. As an ideological opponent, I don't expect, nor care to have, such benefits from you in this manner.

And all of the people but me who were connected to this community and outed themselves have disappeared. Lindsay Ashford? MIA. Kevin Brown? MIA. James Knight? MIA. That's it. Where are the others?

You're talking about people who came "out" on the Web itself, making a "thing" to the online (and offline) media about their status as a MAP, and becoming known essentially for that. I have been "out" without ever actually making a "thing" about my sexuality in and of itself. I have simply admitted it periodically in casual conversation, had discussions about it with some close friends, colleagues, and certain family members who exhibited curiosity about it, and answered questions on several occasions when I have been politely asked by individuals I know and work with outside the MAP community in a public venue. I have never found the need, or thought it was wise, to come out "as a hebephile" as opposed to simply letting the fact be known and not pretend otherwise. I always took care to make it clear that being a hebephile is not the bulk of my identity, because that is not true; like all of us, it's one of many facets of my being rather than some sort of main label I seek to be known as.

It can be argued that Lindsay coming out as a pedophile, and making that the primary focus of his online (and offline) media statements, cemented that identity to him over and above the many other important things he had to say on any other topic. We're talking about apples and oranges here, and you know that.

Those who are not "out" to any degree aren't necessarily pretending to espouse any belief they do not actually have; they simply avoid addressing the "pedophile" issue. That's not pretending to be an entirely different person, with entirely different views.

Again, bullshit. You know that people who aren't out are knowingly projecting an image that is false. One of the reasons I outed myself is because I was tired of living a lie.

Which is why I was never "in the toybox" in the first place. But that doesn't mean I trumpet the fact that I'm a hebephile to every person and every venue that I go to, so that this becomes what I'm primarily known as to everyone. And I never compromised my principles or views to gain greater acceptance, and never gave into shame and guilt over my natural attractions. And though I haven't always gotten along with everyone in my community, I never turned on them as a means of externalizing my own inner conflicts and need to vent. You're not the only anti-choicer who has done this either, Markie (remember Leon, as another prominent "blast from the past"?).

And there is a difference between projecting an image that you are something you're not, and simply not discussing what you actually are, let alone trumpeting it loudly in either an online or offline venue.

But hey, if they want to do that, fine, I get it. But I will keep bringing it up every time you fucking call me a sellout. All your buddies here are no less "sellouts" than I am. It just manifests in a different way.

That doesn't make you brave, Markie, considering what you did and what you turned against to (hopefully) make yourself more acceptable to the status quo you remain loyal to despite how it is. Please remember that the next you suggest that any pro-choicer not loudly rioting down the street "I'm a MAP! I'm a MAP! Woo hoo!" is some type of coward. I wish more of us were out to some degree at least too, and have said that often, but there are mitigating factors in people's lives that can make it very dangerous to do this, and saying "bullshit" to that is being knowingly disingenuous. You have experienced first hand what can happen to those who are "out" if they come to the attention of vigilantes, and it happened to you even after you went the anti-choice route. Our detractors care as little for our views as those who know and respect us well.

A position you think you can live with is a way of admitting that you did it simply to assuage your guilt and shame. That is selling out to yourself before you began to sell out to anyone else. Is this why mainstream liberalism as it's now constituted appeals to much to you? Because you can sit back and accept a defeatist attitude in the company of others who did the same?

You are just bound and determined to keep on with your hypocritical bullshit, aren't you? Nope. It's not about guilt or shame over my sexuality. If it was, then I sure as hell wouldn't be talking about my sexuality publicly and using my real name and face on the pedo boards.

Then I call bullshit on this, as would anyone else who has read your posts over the many years you have been a member of this community. You love presenting yourself as a victim, and you only started doing that in a major way after you had the first major breakdown while a member of this community, one that caused you to switch to anti-choice in the first place. That was partly as a response to being pissed at the community for remaining neutral after a major dispute you had with JD rather than coming out to your side, and partly to do "damage control" over the personal fall-out you experienced after "coming out." No one who remembers the timing of that and witnessed your behavior and posting history over the years would believe you have any degree of respect for yourself or your attractions. The fact that you frequently contradict yourself is further testament to that.

I was speaking of what I could live with morally.

Yes, your shame and guilt over your own attractions, and how you feel that tailoring your views to public sentiment will make you more acceptable to them. That is still a major theme of your posts today, in fact. Sorry, Markie, but I duly recall how you lambasted us for having feelings not in harmony with public acceptability the first time you left - for a year, as I recall that particular time - to try and get yourself "cured," and strongly suggested the rest of us do the same. Those are not the words of an emotionally stable person who does not hate what they are, and who isn't desperate to become acceptable to the prevailing status quo in some fashion (once they realize they cannot be "cured").

I didn't feel right supporting the pro-contact position when I did; I only did it to fit in here.

Considering all the cogent arguments you made in favor of it for a long time back then, I don't believe you were against it, because you had your guilt and shame more in control then. But after certain behavior patterns of yours caused you to have repeated falling-outs with other members here, and after you dealt with a backlash on a personal level for "coming out," this led to a "final straw" falling out with JD that caused you to totally give into those doubts. I also recall it was a creepy post by Enigma (known for such posts, I remember) that made you start having severe doubts before that battle with JD (which had nothing to do with the contact issue). I understand you never felt fully "right" about pro-choice views, but you held control of them until your emotional problems and everything else I describe above got out of hand. I still don't believe what I have seen from you since your "turn" that this is the "real" you.

If you want to call that guilt, so be it, but it isn't the same thing as what you're implying.

I think it is, Markie. You're well aware of the complex turn of events that led to that first big breakdown of yours, and how you have never quite been the same since. Maybe if you sought support rather than taking the venting route, things would have turned out differently. Maybe they still can, at times. I also clearly recall what a different tune you clearly sing during your periods of emotional stability.

I don't hate myself.

Bullhockey, Markie. Total bullhockey.

I don't hate other pedos just for being pedos.

That I agree with you on. But you do use specifically pro-choicers as a proxy to externalize your own overwhelming self-doubts, and as a whipping pole for venting.

I get along just fine with my fellow pedos over at VirPed.

Because they never challenge you, and discussion parameters in general over there are much more tightly controlled than here. Not that I hope you ever have a falling out there, but let's see what happens once your other quirks knock heads with whatever quirks other posters there may have. You haven't been part of VirPed nearly as long as you have GC, and you have bonded with us on a much deeper level due to your time here.

I am not ashamed of my sexuality, but nor am I proud of it.

That is your way of saying it bothers you to no end, because of how so many Non-MAPs feel about it. Your shame over this has been a decisive factor in your erratic, roller-coaster-like behavior over the years. It becomes especially prominent after you have a break down, made clear in all those statements before your periodic departures that you seem to think (and hope) long-timers have forgotten.

I accept it, which is all I can do.

Re-read what you type very carefully, Markie. Honestly.

But just because I'm attracted to children doesn't mean I am in any way obliged to support legalizing sex with kids.

You aren't obliged, but considering your reasons for turning to that side, and what it compels you to rally against, you will be challenged by community members who are diametrically opposed on the issues of choice and youth liberation. You need to learn to accept that. And the fact that you once felt very much otherwise, and served as an inspiration for many others during that time (including me), you also need to accept that your abrupt repudiation of those principles hit many of us hard, especially the way in which you rubbed our noses in it every opportunity you had, and still do to a large extent. That made it very personal on a very deep level.

I don't have to support what I feel is fundamentally immoral just because I'm a pedo.

And you don't have to judge your natural attraction base that way to fit in with public sentiment either. And there was a time when you espoused very different views, and still periodically went back and forth from one to the other, including your "agnostic" phases. This does not build trust in your statements or stability.

I don't have to consider these guys my brothas just because we share an attraction, no more than I would be compelled to hate whitey if I was black, and I am not a traitor to pedokind for disagreeing with you on the contact issue.

This strangely echos what I have said about the importance of ideology in the past, and also contradicts your many previous statements that differing views shouldn't make a difference since we're all MAPs here, so the pro-choicers were always wrong for challenging you like we did (your behavior over and above your always mercurial views notwithstanding). Mmmhmm. Your statements and views change with the direction of the wind, which strongly suggests a guy in severe inner turmoil who isn't sure what he thinks or how he feels about anything besides that overwhelming desire for acceptance from as many people as possible. That, I think, is what you want more than anything, and your mind is a boiling pot of emotions trying to figure out how best to achieve that, and with whom.

Not when you have personally experienced the consequences of doing otherwise. In this case, you're the one being a hypocrite. Especially when you try to persuade us to do things (i.e., riot in the streets in this particular political climate) that you denounced as a bad idea in the past.

You still don't get it, do you? I'm not really trying to get you to do those things. I really don't care if you out yourself or not.

Mmmhmmm. The way you constantly say it and through it in our faces suggests you couldn't possibly respect us unless we did. Which could lead to problems if we cared enough what you thought about us at this point.

I'm trying to get you to recognize that you are a massive hypocrite for attacking me for "selling out" when you and all your fellow pro-contacters are covering your asses just like I am, only you're doing it by hiding your identities.

Which you assume, with no proof, that all or most of us do outside the online venue, and simply because we do not promote ourselves as "pedophiles" first and foremost. Especially when you know how that always turned out for everyone who did that, including yourself. You behave hypocritically all the time with your inconsistent statements and views, so you cheery pick something like this to focus on obsessively in trying to deflect the accusation.

Say what you will about me, but at least I have the courage to claim my sexuality publicly.

But not the courage to ever challenge public attitudes in major ways. I think you're more worried that it is true that many pro-choicers are accepted for our views due to displaying basically honorable character and actions to those who know us. You know that's doing it the right way, not shouting out loud to everyone who may hear that we're MAPs.

And at least I am doing something besides sitting at this forum endlessly spinning my wheels and griping about the group of MAPs who are doing something constructive.

Once again, you ignore B4U-ACT, which everyone here knows damn well exists and which examples of its success - without putting any particular viewpoint on the more controversial topics front and center - have been linked here often enough. When you are continuously disingenuous like this, and continuously insult the intelligence of others here, and also continuously make statements which show how clearly your reality is only comprised of what you want to see and hear, then you do both yourself and all you claim to promote (at any given time) a major disservice. And you seriously wonder why you and Ethan find it so difficult to recruit MAPs who have actually seen the pro-choice arguments to the VirPed "side"? These things you do stick out to them like sore thumbs, Markie. The newbies here aren't the naive fools you take them for.

Once again, you're projecting out of anger at yourself more than at anyone else.

Oh, really. Tell me more, Dr. Dissident.

See, that's the thing, Markie. You don't have to have a Ph.D in psychology to see all the common traits and neuroses you make so clear in the entirety of your posts.

No, I am angry because you keep calling me a "sellout" when you can't see that that's exactly what you and the other pro-contacters are too.

Like a broken record. And one that sings a disingenuous tune.

The pot again calls the kettle black. At least most of us are consistent in our views rather than changing with our moods.

LOL, duh! Of course it is! I'm trying to make a point here by doing what you have done to me for years: calling me a sellout while you and the others are no better than me in that respect.

Spoken about people who do not foolishly "come out" in the manner you think we should, and who you have no proof are not "out" to most who know them in their real lives, even if they do not start an "I'm a pedo" blog.

In fact, I'd say you're considerably worse than me, because you actually believe that kids are being horribly mistreated on the level of the American slaves or the Jews under Hitler and yet you basically do nothing but grumble anonymously.

The Japanese-Americans interred in American concentration camps during World War II weren't treated as horribly overall as were Jews and other ethnic minorities placed in German concentration camps... but did that make it any less of a form of unjust oppression? Did it change the fact that these people were still subjected to this for entirely arbitrary reasons (because of their race)? Many younger people in America are kept in deplorable conditions of poverty and neglect, and subject to the bulk of all forms of violence, including sexual, within those isolated homes that you insist against all the reports and evidence are so cozy and warm. And that's not beginning to touch on the heavy degree of emotional abuse that leads to so many cases of suicide and thousands of younger people running away each year because they are legally forced to live there.

Just because they aren't being thrown into gas chambers doesn't mean it's not oppression. As I told you before, there were many slave owners who were relatively kind to their slaves, but it was still an extremely unequal relationship. A benevolent dictator is still a dictator.

If I perceived kids as being genuinely persecuted, I would be organizing a damned revolution.

No, you wouldn't, because you don't care. What you care about more than anything is being acceptable, and supporting the status quo. You will rationalize and dismiss any uncomfortable facts and reports to do that, just as you have demonstrated elsewhere in this and many other posts.

So, apparently you are too cowardly to publicly defend the people whom you claim to care about the most.

One again stated in broken record fashion while ignoring the uncomfortable fact that you were among the main individuals on this board to say that if MAPs tried to do this in such a fashion in the current climate, they would be "cut down like dogs." And you again ignore the uncomfortable fact that the youth liberation movement is doing it the right way, and has had a few recent successes such as convincing some American jurisdictions to lower the voting age to 16. A small but important step. All of this while working within the system and not staging riots or full-scale revolutions. This will also be ignored or rationalized away by you. But others who are more objective on the topic won't ignore it.

Or, could it be that that's not what's really happening at all and you know it?

Sorry, Markie, but not everyone ignores reality like you do. And not everyone can violate their principles enough to just "go with the flow" like you can. Believe it or not, some people thing principles are more important than being accepted by society at large.

You're getting windier than Chicago in these posts.