Re: Never mind mods ....

You are obviously anti-sex too.

Nope. That is what you choose to believe since it fits with your neat pigeon-holing of people who have different views than yourself - as do many here - just repeating the same stuff.

You, like all antis, want to confine sex's normativeness to very narrow parameters, to control its exposure to the wider population,

Nope. I don't want to confine anything unless it has a much greater chance of harming individual than for any gains it might be perceived to have. I suppose I would be called an anti for opposing murder?

The 'sex is inherently harmful to kids' paradigm is not only wrong,

Who said it was? You keep reading but taking nothing in.

I don't see the evidence as at all being powerful or the 'logic', sorry.

Of course you don't. Like all True Believers in any myth, the evidence could be right in front of your face and you would still fail to see it.

Well, guess what - look in the mirror.

Existing in other cultures is also not a valid reason and since, as you say, it has not existed in Western cultures, then there might be sufficient reasons for this precisely not happening - Western cultures are 'more advanced', in their thinking as well as in many other ways.

I'm not claiming that the fact that it has existed in other cultures proves it is right.

It is commonly used as an argument by many here it seems - other times, other places etc.

I am suggesting that the fact that it has existed (and still exists) in other cultures which approved--or at least did not disapprove--of it gives us a good grounding for studying it's real effects. It also demonstrates that there is no inherent (genetic) predisposition in parents to protect children from sex, which would almost certainly have evolved if sex was inherently harmful to kids.

Perhaps.

We do not teach things to children, as I have said many times probably, that which they are not able to understand, put into context or to cope with - sexual issues might be one.

And I will repeat that there is nothing complicated about sex. Even a kindergartener can understand that being touched in a certain place and a certain way generates pleasure.

WTF. So what? - for some it might and for some not at all. That then necessarily means that it is OK and we derive our policies on 'does this feel good' or 'does this not feel good'? Bullying perhaps feels good to some. So does hurting animals or other humans.

The most accurate analogy I can come up with for how we treat kids and sex is this: Imagine never teaching a child to swim. In fact, not only do we not teach them to swim, we don't even allow them to see other people swimming, or even large bodies of water. Oh, they may get hints about it here and there, but we make sure to drum into them what a bad, bad thing it would be for them to swim (and if any experienced adult actually dared to tell them the truth, and to--gasp!--teach them, carefully and respectfully, how to swim, then we lock the adult up for life and send the kid to therapy, making sure they become well aware that their innocence has been destroyed and their life ruined). And then, after a lifetime of forbidding them to swim or to see a swimming pool or lake, at some arbitrary age we drive them out to a lake and say, "Well, you're on your own. Swim back to shore if you can."

That's basically what we do to kids with regard to sex--we forbid them even the full knowledge of it, and then we expect them to make good decisions about sex when we finally decide they are mature enough to have it. Or, if kids do learn enough about "swimming" they sneak off to try to do it with each other, both as equally impatient and ignorant as the other. And then we wonder why so many young people's first sexual experiences are terrible, or why they fuck up relationships, or wind up dating assholes, or get pregnant too early, etc. They've never had any experiences with people who are smarter, wiser, more patient--in other words, people who are grounded, respectful and know what the fuck they're doing. Sex is a natural thing and should be integrated into our lives right from the get-go. That would assure that body shame could never be used as a weapon against us. It would disempower those who use sex as a tool to control kids, and by extension everyone, because all adults' sex lives have to be rearranged around children. If you think about it, you'll see what I mean.

I don't see the analogy as being that good a fit and we have to struggle through our childhoods with many things to 'get right' without any overt teaching or 'conditioning' other than what we witness in others. There are plenty of things we do not get any assistance with unless we deliberately ask for such. We are a species that learns from our mistakes (hopefully - some much better than others) so it can't be said that this just applies to sexual matters.

If a child never masturbates are you going to insist they suddenly 'discover' this new form of delight for them? Why not leave it up to their own development cycle?

If a child never learns to count are you going to insist they suddenly 'discover' this new form of understanding the world for them? Why not leave it up to their own development cycle?

That's a new one, counting=sex, perhaps it is for those with early sexual experiences since many seem to have a greater number of sexual partners and also suffer a greater number of problems later.

I'll tell you why: because sex is important, probably THE most important thing humans will ever do.

Do, as in survival that is obvious but not 'do' as in 'this the most important thing in my life'. To you it might be but perhaps empathy (for example) is of greater significance since that might produce a better world for us all rather than the old hippy maxim 'make love, not war'..

They should learn not only to do it right, but to be comfortable with their bodies and their bodies' response. They should know WHY sex is important, and they should have power over their own bodies, and to know that they have that power. If a child's 'yes' is disavowed, then their 'no' is meaningless. They learn that they have no real power over their bodies. They learn sex is always something secretive (and therefore shameful). And on and on.

Education has along way to go I will agree - just get the right people to do it - not paedophiles, who have an intrusive interest which has no more positive affects than any other adult who cares for children.

Teach them things in an appropriate manner when they are ready to imbibe this and some will be more ready than others but you really think there would be no 'forcing' i.e. beyond what would occur naturally, that would be happening in the lives of many children?

No, I don't think there would be no forcing. That would be an issue, but it would be much less of one in the system I advocate because all forms of consensual sex will be normative, openly engaged in and openly discussed. Ergo, the very secretiveness and unusualness of sex with kids in the current system cannot be used against kids to shame and silence them, and so genuine abuse can be caught a lot sooner and stopped. You're still going to have rapists and abusers, but those people tend to disregard the law anyway.

Keep advocating, but don't expect too big an audience.

This is precisely what happens in 'grooming' where subtle changes in the interactions between the 'groomer' and the child alters how the child reacts to their sexual experiences. They often start off having no sexual content at all - being all about 'play' and then they gradually turn more sexual. I regard that as 'forcing' the situation whilst many here would see it as 'teaching'. It is precisely what is advocated in paedophile 'guides' as to how to interact sexually with children.

Of course you see that as forcing, and in some cases it might be.

And I would hardly be the only one would I?

There are shades of gray there, but adults should always be sure children are comfortable with sex play,

The 'pleasure' principle again.

and in my system all of the adults in that child's life can ascertain the situation much more easily than in the current system, where kids are shamed into silence by the cultural expectations. Look, there is no perfect system. What I'm looking for is the optimal one for everyone. I think I have it pretty well hammered out.

Take up the hammered dulcimer - sounds very nice too.

I posted what is typically found regarding advice concerning child sexual development and it does recognise the range of behaviours often found and tolerated although it is recognised that such behaviours can cause problems because often they do it is often just too early for many and something for which they get fixated, like masturbation for example. Early sexual experiences doesn't necessarily equal pleasure but often simply habit.

And do you think it is better for children who develop sexual habits that are bad for them under the current system, where sex is shameful, secretive thing never discussed with kids, or would it be better in my system? My system wins again.

Yep, all winners. I can see some changes occurring in how sexual education is 'taught' since we do leave too much up to to the parents quite often - they can withdraw their children from sex-education classes I believe in the UK.

Paedophilia is much more likely to become eradicated if the correct origins and solutions can be found. Bet on the right horse mate.

Nope. If the origins of pedophilia are genetic, then destroying what occurs naturally will be no different than eliminating blacks, or Jews, or whatever.

Naturally? Like all the other defects that scientists are trying currently to eliminate? You'll have a hard time trying to convince them that it is 'natural' although there is no shortage of attempts to do so it seems.

If would tantamount to genocide. If, however, it is caused by environment, then the exact cause will never be eliminated because environment cannot be controlled to that extent. As for me, I think that pedophilia, like all sexual orientations, cannot be pinned down to one cause. I think it's partly genetic, partly environmental, and, in some cases, even congenital.

I think I can join this club then, since I too believe there is no single origin and the attraction could come from multiple sources.

I would take any bet you cared to place on this but I doubt either of us will be around to collect. I can see changes for those older children and for those attracted to them but not for those exclusively sexually attracted to pre-pubescents. They will be wiped out eventually if/when the right answers are found.

You wish.

No wishing involved, just a hunch. My last sentence was a little foolish since I don't think, as I said, a single cause could be found and certainly not one purely genetic or biological. Hence it is unlikely that paedophilia will ever be eradicated - Cantor, I believe, has misplaced optimism. Did you watch his lecture?