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Why Ethan is wrong :-)

Posted by Dissident on Friday, April 27 2018 at 11:45:06AM
In reply to why Dissy is wrong :-) posted by EthanEdwards on Friday, April 27 2018 at 10:32:59AM

I've been arguing the anti-legalization here on GC going back at least to 2013. Much of this ground has been covered before, though I don't recall arguments about Margaux Fragoso in particular. My opinions on legalization are more nuanced than a lot of people think and are laid out at length in a series of blog posts here: http://celibatepedos.blogspot.com/2017/03/index-considering-pro-legalization-pro.html.

Sincere kudos to you if your views on this matter are indeed nuanced, Ethan. I encourage everyone here to read your blog entries with interest and fairness.

Margaux's "Tiger, Tiger" is a 2011 book. Among pedophiles, it has been reviewed in blog posts by Tom O'Carroll (https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2014/08/21/love-is-confoundedly-complicated/) and me (http://celibatepedos.blogspot.com/2014/10/tiger-tiger-subtle-sex-abuse-memoir.html). I think it's a great book and encourage people to read it.

Ditto.

Margaux reached out to us at Virtuous Pedophiles during the summer of 2016 and made 30 posts. She was at that time optimistic about her treatment for ovarian cancer, but sadly died of it in 2017.

My condolences to Margaux's family, friends, and fellow posters on Virped who may have grown close to her (including you) :-( I actually had no idea she was sick and had passed on until it was mentioned on Tom's blog this week. I have lost too many people to cancer myself, and it really saddens me to hear this.

Dissident starts out with the assumption that pro-legalization opinions among children are far more common than you would think because any such views are harshly repressed. I agree there is some repression but think lots of kids make their opinions known regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Lots? Hardly, Ethan. Kids hide the fact of their own experimentation with sex play amongst each other for good reason, as they are expected to show no interest in it, and young teenagers are expected to show only a modicum of interest in it, if that. Kids today live in an era where parents are accused of abuse if the kid displays the slightest degree of sexual curiosity in a school setting, such as a 5-year-old lifting a female peer's dress up. We have numerous kids on the sex offender registry as sex offenders, and forced "therapy" of kids caught having intergen relationships is very harsh with its protocols.

There's no solid data on this in one direction or the other.

Though it's well known that kids like to "play doctor," and also very well known that they like to seek sexual info online. This is why you constantly hear parents and web administrators talk about installing "parental controls" to have their kids monitored. And as I said before, you act as if kids speaking out about how they hate getting up in the morning to go to school, or how they hate having to eat broccoli, or make strong statements on acceptable political topics like the gun control issue, carries equal social and emotional magnitude to discussing having sex, let alone arguing for the choice to be with adults if that is the way their preferences swing! Saying we do not live in a heavily sex repressive society regarding kids, with a heavy denial of the full spectrum of youth sexuality, goes against a vast amount of readily empirical evidence. Books have indeed been filled with such data, including Judith Levin's book Harmful to Minors. And she had to jump through hoops to get that data published!

His contention is not falsifiable, though Occam's Razor suggests that the main reason you don't hear such opinions is simply that only a very few kids hold them.

That would only work if we lived in a society where kids were allowed to speak their mind in public venues on any subject not pre-approved by parents or adult administrators, or not first considered either acceptable by adult consensus or innocuous enough to be dismissed by adults as drivel. Sexuality, let along sexual interest in adults, is far from any of the above! If it was true that kids were free to speak their minds on this matter, we would not have such a strong anti-youth sex hysteria going on in this country, and the extensive protectionist laws of the past 40 years would never have become a reality.

Has a teen's social media account been shut down solely because they argued in favor of legalizing adult-child sex? It doesn't sound common, and I'd love to hear of documented cases.

Um, Ethan, YouTube is well known for having what is often called the "pedo police" who routinely troll around YouTube looking for instances of videos where younger people get too sexual, or have a slew of comments acknowledging their physical attractiveness (even if politely), let alone any instance of underagers talking favorably about intergen sexual contact/rights! Such people have likely bruised their fingers on all the times they have hit the flag buttons for those reasons!

We had one such incident here years ago with what Perverted Justice (remember them?) referred to on their anti-MAP database as "The Fayla Incident." Fayla was the handle used by a 15-year-old mesophile who posted here on GC and in Lifeline for almost a year, and had a YouTube channel of audio-only videos where she argued passionately for youth sexual rights (and youth rights in general), including describing her then-ongoing relationship with an adult man in positive terms. Well, PJ looked into that heavily, and one day Fayla made the mistake of posting the actual city where she lived on the board. The mods deleted it, but unfortunately, not before some of the constantly watching PJ trolls saw it. They investigated, found out her real identity, and promptly contacted her parents, local police, and the staff of her school. She was promptly forced into "therapy," her YouTube channel was deleted, and she faced long hours under police interrogation to try and break her into revealing the identity of her adult boyfriend, as well as other adult men she may have seen romantically in the past. When she refused to give in, her parents were told she was "severely emotionally disturbed" and "complacent with her abuser" blah blah blah you know the drill.

She kept in touch with some of us via email where she described the day-to-day ordeal of this "therapy," including how her parents were recommended to attempt to foist boys her own age on her, which she was not happy with because she was not attracted to boys in her own age group, and disliked these young guys trying to put their hands on her, a lack of respect she mentioned her older boyfriends had never displayed. And of course, she had to break up with her adult boyfriend, which distressed her quite a bit.

All of her computer activity at both home and school was heavily monitored, and she had to be very sneaky to use an email account to keep communications with the community going via the clandestine help of same-aged friends in real life, but eventually she lost that as well, and she eventually couldn't post here anymore anyway when the board got more strict with its registration rules. Prior to that, however, there were several underage, as well as adult, mesophiles who posted here. One of them, Ella, had her own blog for a while called Idiocy Museum, and she was one of the most passionate pro-choicers we had in the community for a few years. She also first arrived here at age 15, and made friends with Fayla for a time until she was no longer able to post.

This was a well documented instance that makes it very clear what happens to any mesophile who dares to speak out publicly about their desires or what they think their rights should be, and in the current climate, that is more common sense than anything else. I await more mesophiles to start posting here, even though they must all be adults as per the current registration rules.

If it was commonly expected that girls would give blow jobs to men even if they felt no sexual desire for them and she'd seen it done, I suppose she would have been less traumatized. But that's not the kind of world any of us want, is it?

The kind of world some of us want is a world where girls (and boys) can make these choices for themselves, and be empowered to stand up and say "no" if they mean "no," and to say "yes" if they mean "yes." That means against bullying on both sides of the fence, and not fear being shamed or be labeled "emotionally disturbed" if they say "yes." Those who are familiar with Margaux's story are well aware that she had an abusive household, and if she had been allowed to extricate herself from that, then she may very well have not found herself dependent on any adults, and only been with adults romantically if she wanted to be. She also would have had a choice with far more respectful adult men than Peter if she was so inclined, and would not have felt disgusted or traumatized by any sexual activity because she would live in a society that did not demonize it, and did not slut-shame women for being open about their sexual desires, or girls for not being asexual. Also, if she wanted a surrogate father figure with no sexual aspects to it, she would have had the legal right to seek any number of platonic friendships with adults of both genders, and would not have had to give sexual favors in order to acquire that.

This would have included many MAPs who would not have expected sexual relations with her if she didn't want them, and may not have considered her their romantic "type" in the first place, yet still considered her a good friend. I have personally known many young teen girls I was not attracted to romantically, but would welcome platonic friendships with nevertheless due to my full respect for them on a social level. There is much more to us than sexual lust for girls, Ethan, and I'm sure you know this. That would continue to be the case even in a youth liberated world where kids could make their own choices, and seek out support to enable them to make the best choices as individuals rather than encounter nothing but prohibition and shame. In such an environment, Margaux could have found much better and less flawed adults than Peter, both romantically and/or platonically, since she would not have been forced to "go it alone," with no non-judgmental support and guidance. This is where her story frankly falls apart, because there are many teleiophile older men she could have sought for this surrogate father role, as I doubt Peter was the only non-familial older man in her home town.

There is much more nuance to that story considering what Margaux dealt with outside of Peter, which you are not making clear, though Tom did with many such excerpts from her memoir that he posted on his blog. I encourage everyone here to go read them there in the exchange in addition to reading Margaux's book, as we both recommended.

True. Some also treat their child partners much worse. Some do treat them better. I suspect it is fairly few who do, but from among them come the occasional reminiscences about positive experiences.

You suspect that fairly few treat their young partners better than Peter did Margaux? You seem to make a lot of very negative assumptions about adults in general, Ethan. Your misanthropy hurts your credibility a lot, even if it happens to be emotionally appealing. The majority of us are good people, much like the majority of all other demographics are good people. Yes, including those of us who are male and heterosexual!






Dissident






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